Episode Transcript
[2 Speakers Detected]
[0:01 -> 1:22] Speaker 1:
Hey, friend. Welcome to Perspectives Into Practice, a place where life's stories meet practical wisdom. Together, we'll explore how faith-filled perspectives can transform the way we live, love, and grow. So grab a seat, settle in, and join us on this journey to turn inspiration into action. Let's dive in. Hey friend, welcome back to Perspectives Into Practice. Today's conversation is so layered and vulnerable that we're bringing it to you in two parts. I'm joined by my wise and tender-hearted friend Christina again, and together we're stepping into a deeply complex question: what does it mean to honor your father and mother when that relationship has brought real pain, even abuse? In part one, we explore the spiritual and emotional weight of this commandment, the fear-based teachings many of us grew up with, and how distorted Hardened theology can affect our view of God and others. This conversation holds space for real grief and the complexity that often comes with it, and for the reminder that even in the middle of the mess, God is still present. We don't rush through the hard parts. Instead, we lean into them with honesty and hope. Welcome, Christina!
[1:22 -> 1:25] Speaker 2:
Heyo! Happy Shark Week! Yeah!
[1:26 -> 1:39] Speaker 1:
All right, so let's take a breath. Before we get any deeper into this conversation today, It's fun fact time. So your fun fact for us today, Christina, is that you started weightlifting in middle school.
[1:40 -> 1:40] Speaker 2:
I did.
[1:41 -> 1:42] Speaker 1:
I did do that.
[1:42 -> 1:43] Speaker 2:
I did do that.
[1:43 -> 1:44] Speaker 1:
And you were so strong.
[1:45 -> 2:44] Speaker 2:
And that was at the behest of a very perceptive gym coach who realized that I was not coordinated at all. I think he had sympathy for me, and I'm so grateful for that. Not only was I off, you know, in literally left field every time we played some sort of game that involved fields playing with the butterflies, but also I could not connect any bat with a ball, any ball with a hoop, any, any kind of ball situation, I could not connect. So one day he pulled me aside and said, Hey, what do you think about going into the, the football locker room and lifting weights during PE? And I'm like, oh my gosh, yes. I loved it. So anyway, I enjoyed that good pump, the nice rush from the pump very early on. And that's something I've continued on with me. Let's see, 20, 30 years later. I love it.
[2:44 -> 2:56] Speaker 1:
It's the best. And those that don't lift weights, you're really missing out. You should go pump some iron. What's. What does Arnold Schwarzenegger say? I'm going to pump.
[2:59 -> 3:15] Speaker 2:
Arnold says. Arnold Schwarzenegger, which I adore him. I'm a member of his podcast community. He doesn't email, so he says, Come with me if you want to lift, which is a modification of Come with me if you want to live, which was from Predator.
[3:15 -> 3:17] Speaker 1:
Anyway, we love it.
[3:17 -> 3:25] Speaker 2:
Weightlifting is a great outlet. Excellent outlet. Very fun. For me, a much more viable option than playing sports.
[3:25 -> 3:36] Speaker 1:
It's good. You don't have to have so much coordination. So from lifting weights to lifting emotional burdens, we're doing, that was a great segue.
[3:36 -> 3:38] Speaker 2:
That was for you. Loved it. Yeah.
[3:40 -> 4:02] Speaker 1:
Let's shift into what does it look like to wrestle with honoring parents who caused harm? So we have talked a lot about this subject over the years, and I know that the fifth commandment, Old Testament versus New Testament, is really near and dear to your heart. Can you share a bit about your story and why this means so much to you.
[4:03 -> 5:01] Speaker 2:
Absolutely. I have found just in my personal life, an aside, that anytime there's something in scripture that kind of rubs you the wrong way, it's a great opportunity to dig deeper and try to figure out why does this bother me? What about this is contradicting something that I was raised with, contradicting how my heart feels, contradicting my experiences? So I've gone deep. I've gone deep into this because I can't keep it in my own power. Period, end of story. I can't. I cannot honor my parents in my own power. The Old Testament, the church I grew up in. So the church I grew up in was essentially strictly Old Testament. There was no New Testament preached ever. So I have a very healthy understanding of the Old Testament and a very healthy fear of what happens if you do not keep all of the commandments.
[5:02 -> 5:17] Speaker 1:
Can I ask, I'm sorry, for those that are listening that may not understand what we're saying when we say Old Testament versus New Testament, can you give like a quick child's introduction? Like what does that mean when you say that?
[5:18 -> 5:50] Speaker 2:
Sure. So in the Old Testament, God had not yet sent Jesus to fulfill all of God's law. So in order for his people to be close to God, God's people to be close to God, they had to perform a certain way in order to be in his presence, because he is holy and he is faultless, and he cannot just come to us sinless people. So in the New Testament, Jesus came and created that. That way for us to connect with God without having to behave perfectly.
[5:50 -> 5:51] Speaker 1:
Yes, perfectly said.
[5:53 -> 5:54] Speaker 2:
I said that perfectly.
[5:54 -> 5:55] Speaker 1:
That's so nice.
[5:56 -> 6:07] Speaker 2:
Tickle my little perfectionism issue. Yes. So my perfectionism issue started when we learned all about the Old Testament, that you have to be perfect to be loved. That was what was preached. You must be perfect.
[6:07 -> 6:08] Speaker 1:
And that's impossible.
[6:08 -> 6:14] Speaker 2:
But I was taught it was possible, right? I was taught you could do it, and you have to do it, or you're going to hell.
[6:14 -> 6:30] Speaker 1:
It's like an uphill battle, and it breaks my heart that. Not only that that was taught to you as a child and continuing to grow up, but that I know that it is continued to be taught in so many different religions and it's so.
[6:30 -> 7:40] Speaker 2:
Sad and impossible and difficult. But it just sets people up for failure because then not only when you fail because you're going to fail so when you fail then you beat yourself over the head a million times worse than if you understand, Grace. So, yes, let's go back to my old church. So my old church, the church I grew up in, was very heavy on this commandment. Very heavy on, on the honor thy father and mother commandment. And it was physically beat into us in this church. There were actual there were actual pamphlets distributed at the church on how to discipline, read, abuse your child into compliance, like with figures. Like, I have these on file. This. And I, and I hate to say it, I mean, it wasn't a good look for this church, but I think that there are still some churches that believe in this practice that you must beat these Commandments into your children. And so that's what we do.
[7:40 -> 7:46] Speaker 1:
Isn't there a tiny bit of a verse that says something, the rod spoiled the child?
[7:48 -> 8:12] Speaker 2:
But I have gone into deep. So when I read scripture, it is like I take it upon myself to be the college professor and the college student. When I'm reading scripture, I'm gonna go into it. So a rod is used for protection. It is not used for discipline. Staff is used for direction. So we are talking about protection and direction. We are not talking about discipline.
[8:12 -> 8:19] Speaker 1:
Yes, because his rod and his staff, they comfort us. Wow, you just blew my mind.
[8:20 -> 9:58] Speaker 2:
You see? You see? Spend some time around sheep. You'll learn why that's important. You just made a baa noise. Baa baa, just because sheep... Okay. These pamphlets. So the parents, you know, any, any good church that's going to teach these kinds of things, and I say good in a sarcastic way, is going to use fear to make the parents compliant to their will, and then the parents will then make the children compliant. So a parent's worth in the church and their success of being a parent was directly measured by the compliance of the child. So a parent was seen as a bad parent and therefore a bad Christian if their child made a noise in service. And then that parent, and by the way, the services were like three hours long. There was no such thing as children's programming, no such thing. So the parents are terrified, you know, that they're going to lose all of their friends. So they have to do this. They have to abuse their children in order to make their children learn these Commandments, because not only then will the parents be excommunicated, but then their children will not go to heaven. Right. If they don't follow every single one of these Commandments and they want their children to have eternal life. So I've been looking, I think, in relation to this Commandment for black and white answers, because if you look at the other Commandments, they're pretty black and white. They're pretty black, like, do not steal. Do not lie, do not murder these, these things. There's no gray area.
[9:59 -> 9:59] Speaker 1:
Yeah.
[9:59 -> 10:22] Speaker 2:
For them. So it made me wonder, like, was there no gray area for the Israelites in this commandment? Because when God's talking to them, he knows who he's talking to. Right. We know. Yeah. From reading their story that these are not, I hate to say they're not the most intelligent people in the world, but they're making the same mistakes that we would make, is what I'm trying to say. Absolutely.
[10:22 -> 10:22] Speaker 1:
So.
[10:22 -> 10:34] Speaker 2:
And they make mistakes often and God was not expecting them to be perfect when he told them these commandments. So in my brain I say, well, they should have known what this means, otherwise God would have said it differently.
[10:34 -> 10:34] Speaker 1:
Right. Yeah.
[10:35 -> 10:53] Speaker 2:
So I've looked into it a bit and it's difficult to keep on my own and because it is difficult to keep on my own, I'm looking for this black and white, this is what I'm supposed to do in order to keep the commandment. Because, yeah. Keeping God's Commandments honors God. Do we want to honor God?
[10:53 -> 10:53] Speaker 1:
Yes.
[10:54 -> 11:58] Speaker 2:
He made these Commandments and he made them for our good. Right. He didn't make them to burden us. So there's benefits to them. So we want to do them. So what does it look like when we do them? And how do we do this particular one? If the Israelites knew what it meant, we go back into that commandment and it says, you know, honor your father and mother. Then there's the promise that comes after that. Right. If you haven't heard. This, this is the only commandment with the promise. Well, it says that it will go well with you and you will have long life in the land. Right. Yes. So then you have to do a little bit of Bible scholar land. So if you weren't raised with a very healthy understanding of the Old Testament, God was bringing the Israelites to what they call the promised land, which was essentially his place of provision and protection. And who doesn't want that? So it was important specifically. For the Israelites to listen to their parents because their parents would be teaching these commandments to them and then generation upon generation it would be passed and then they would keep the knowledge and keep the understanding that way they could then enter the Promised Land. This is the original context.
[11:59 -> 11:59] Speaker 1:
Yes.
[11:59 -> 12:12] Speaker 2:
So how the crap do we apply that to today? What does this mean? We are not going to the Promised Land. We are going to heaven, yes, but we are going to heaven by Jesus. But if we keep his commandments, we honor God and he does these things for us.
[12:12 -> 12:20] Speaker 1:
Because the promised land for us is heaven. But it's not by acts or works. It is by.
[12:21 -> 12:21] Speaker 2:
Yeah.
[12:22 -> 12:27] Speaker 1:
Jesus's sacrifice. But that also still means obedience to his commands to us.
[12:27 -> 12:28] Speaker 2:
Yes.
[12:28 -> 12:31] Speaker 1:
So then we are going back to how to exactly those commands.
[12:31 -> 13:37] Speaker 2:
Yes. It's a cyclical argument. Yeah. So what I've had to ask myself, like I said, when things irk you, get curious about it and don't. I'm not judging myself for being curious. You can't judge yourself for being curious. God put curiosity inside of you. You have to wonder what these things mean. So I'm thinking, is it bothersome? Is this commandment bothersome to me? Because I know I can't keep it and I cannot rely on myself and I'm self-sufficient is it bothersome because of that? Or is it bothersome because it goes against what my parents want me to do in order to honor them. So is pleasing my parents contrary to honoring my parents biblically? And is that why there is internal conflict? Because being raised by abusive parents, you have to keep them happy or you are in danger. Mortal danger if your parents are not happy. So it is instilled within me that I must keep my parents happy. Well, what keeps my parents happy may not be what God means when he said, honor your parents.
[13:37 -> 14:06] Speaker 1:
Well, because they're coming from a selfish place of this needs, I need to look good in the eyes of the church. And obviously that is not why God gave us that commandment to honor our mother and father. It is to learn what is right, but not to make them look good because that's not what the commandments are not selfish for us. They are for honoring God in.
[14:09 -> 14:33] Speaker 2:
So if your listeners have not yet looked up in measurement theory, I do encourage them to look up in measurement theory because this could be one of the reasons why your parent does not understand that what pleases them may not be what God means when he says to honor your parents is because they are not looking at you as a separate entity from themselves.
[14:35 -> 14:47] Speaker 1:
So that you growing up, that word honor for your side was to make them look good so that they weren't in trouble with their friends.
[14:47 -> 14:49] Speaker 2:
Keep them happy. Yeah. Yeah.
[14:49 -> 14:52] Speaker 1:
Which happy does not equal honor.
[14:52 -> 14:53] Speaker 2:
It did not.
[14:54 -> 15:04] Speaker 1:
No. So where did you experience God's nearness in the thick of your struggles, in this with your parents and with these commandments?
[15:04 -> 16:19] Speaker 2:
I've had to ask a lot of questions. I've had to ask a lot of questions to spiritual leaders in my life because now that I've left that church, my parents have left that church too, by the way, and they have not attended another church in 20 ish years, so they are unchurched. The way I've gone about this is it's very clear, I think in almost every youth group, they preach this commandment and they preach that it is to obey and respect your parents, is what they say. It is very rare that I have ever found someone to preach what it is like to honor your parents as an adult child, as an adult child who has their own family system. Right. So I have left their family system. I'm in my new family system with our own priorities and our own, everything that we do is different than what they did. And again, in measurement theory, I actually had an interaction with my mother in which she tried to remind me that I am still theirs and not my husband's. She said, don't forget that you are always And then she used my maiden name and you're not a married name. And I'm like, pretty sure I am.
[16:19 -> 16:25] Speaker 1:
Doesn't it say in the Bible to leave your mother and father and be right?
[16:26 -> 16:32] Speaker 2:
It does, but it only says that for the male. It doesn't say that for the female. I know. I went deep into that too.
[16:32 -> 16:36] Speaker 1:
For those that can't see my eyes, they were rolling.
[16:39 -> 16:39] Speaker 2:
Yes.
[16:40 -> 16:44] Speaker 1:
We're on video so that we can see each other. But you cannot see us when you're listening.
[16:45 -> 18:44] Speaker 2:
But they definitely did roll. Well executed. 9.5 out of 10. I hope to get a 10 out of a 10 soon. Hope to. So if we know what it looks like when we're kids to honor our parents, I've just, I've been asking people, what does it look like to honor your parents as an adult? And the people I've been asking, are parents themselves? How do they want their adult children to honor them? And honestly, a lot of the answers have been selfish. And they don't take into account any of the trauma that the parents caused on the trial, you know? So the parents are saying, you know, you don't have to be obedient anymore. I've gotten the answer that parents of adult children would like to have their counsel be taken heavily, you know, for their wisdom to be acknowledged, for their sacrifices to be acknowledged. They would like, they would like for their children, their adult children to be respectful of them in a way that means that they are kind, they are respectful of their parents' time. They don't just throw grandkids on their parents and just say, here, I need you to do this, or why don't you come to my house and take care of this? For me, that kind of thing, which is fine. The more challenging is when I've had women come to me when I asked them this question that say, well, we expect mercy from our children. We expect grace from our children for the ways that we have wronged them. And that is them honoring us is to give us grace. And again, we're going to go back to Does this commandment bother me because I can't do it to myself at all? Or because what they're wanting is not what the commandment is? We've got to think about that. So I'm gonna ask you this question too. Like, how do you want your kids to honor you? What are you expecting?
[18:44 -> 18:48] Speaker 1:
I can only expect out of my children what I have taught them myself.
[18:49 -> 18:50] Speaker 2:
That's beautiful.
[18:50 -> 18:59] Speaker 1:
So, yeah, thank you. Because I did have some trauma growing up and I, I had, I'm sorry.
[18:59 -> 19:04] Speaker 2:
For that, by the way, if no one's apologized to you for it, I'm sorry you went through that. And I'm glad you're still here.
[19:05 -> 20:46] Speaker 1:
I am still here and I am learning from these things. And, you know, I have conversations all the time and I, on the other side, I can't expect more from my parents than what they were given and not to dismiss what happened and how life was growing up, but also knowing that they were doing, for the most part, the best they could with the information they had. From the upbringing that they had and what they have learned, good or bad, that's where my mind goes. And not to dismiss it, but to also put it in a category of grace and love. And so when I think of my children honoring me, it would be in the respect that I have given them, I would hope to get back. That's beautiful. In the grace and the forgiveness that I have given to them, I would hope to receive the same. In the open and honest conversations that we've had, you know, as they're growing up, that they can come to me as an adult and we can still have those open and honest conversations and both mutually respect each other in that because we can communicate well because they have been taught how to communicate well. And so I guess it would look different in children, toddlers, up to teens, to adults. But I think if we're teaching them these things, this is what honor means in a Biblical sense. If they're growing up in that, then that's what I would expect as they're adults because they know better.
[20:48 -> 21:52] Speaker 2:
I like that. I like those expectations. I like that you're taking responsibility of how they treat you. That is beautiful. And that's actually biblical because not only are we commanded to respect, honor our parents, which, by the way, in Hebrew, honor means to give weight to. So if you look at it in that context, We are commanded to give weight to our parents. Also, parents are commanded to bring us up in the knowledge of God, AKA the love of God, AKA the grace of God. That's what they are commanded to do for us. They are commanded not to abuse or neglect. They are God-given power. God has arranged a family system. He created this family system. He has given them the authority. And they, they are given instruction, you know, to raise us a certain way, to not provoke us to anger. And when they do, they're breaking those Commandments that the Lord has given them. They're not just 10 Commandments in scripture. There is more. There are more than 10.
[21:53 -> 22:30] Speaker 1:
Those are just the ones etched in a stone. But, yeah, to that point is that how we honor our parents is we are honoring the systems, I guess we could say, that they have taught us. Which in the Bible should be biblical. So if they're teaching us biblical principles, we honor them in doing those biblical things. And it should be a beautiful circle. But it definitely does get broken because we are human and we live in a. A world with sin and, well, we are selfish.
[22:30 -> 22:31] Speaker 2:
Nobody's Nerfick.
[22:31 -> 22:32] Speaker 1:
Yes.
[22:32 -> 22:33] Speaker 2:
Unfortunately, you're right.
[22:34 -> 22:38] Speaker 1:
You are so right. I'm just like, I love this quizzical look.
[22:39 -> 23:56] Speaker 2:
I love this quizzical look. Yes, Pooh Buddies, perfect. So I want to come back to, you said something, they did their best. And I'm going to come back to that because I have a very clear picture of that in my brain. But first, let's talk about love. So you're expecting, and I think it is a healthy expectation for you, you and others who have raised their children in a godly manner, that they will love you in a manner similar to the way you have loved them. So then here comes my, what is love? Because I get curious, like what exactly is unconditional love? I had a really beautiful therapist who asked me this question, what is unconditional love? She said, it's her favorite question to ask people, and it's difficult. It is a difficult question. So I struggled with it. Very much. She asked me to ask my parents. I asked my parents. They asked me to call them back in a half hour. And I will tell you their responses and they are telling. Then I asked my husband who grew up in a secure attachment dial family. He answered me immediately. And it was, it was like a light bulb went off. So before I ruin your answer by telling everyone else's answer, I would love to know, do you have a working definition of unconditional love?
[23:57 -> 24:02] Speaker 1:
I don't think I've ever been asked or asked myself what that means, but I.
[24:02 -> 24:03] Speaker 2:
It's a good question, right?
[24:04 -> 24:17] Speaker 1:
It is a really good question. And I think that unconditional love would be obviously without using the definition of loving without condition, but that there is.
[24:17 -> 24:20] Speaker 2:
That's my role. You skew my eye roll.
[24:20 -> 24:56] Speaker 1:
Yeah, you want to accept that. And we're just getting started. In part two, Christina turns the tables and asks me some really important questions, including how I define unconditional love and what I hope my own children will carry forward as they grow. We also unpack what healthy boundaries look like when your upbringing may include manipulation or even abuse. In the meantime, I'd love for you to sit with this question: have you ever confused pleasing your parents with honoring them? And how might God be inviting you to see the difference? I'll meet you back here next week.
