[00:00:01] Jessica: Hey, friend. Welcome to Perspectives into Practice, a place where life's stories meet practical wisdom. Together we'll explore how faith filled perspectives can transform the way we live, love, and grow.
So grab a seat, settle in, and join us on this journey to turn inspiration into action.
Let's dive in foreign.
Welcome back to Perspectives into Practice. Have you ever been so sure about someone that you had already decided what you thought before you even really listened to them? Maybe you disagreed with them, Maybe you didn't understand a decision that they were making? Or maybe you could clearly see what they thought that they should be doing differently. And meanwhile, God's over here saying, hey, eyes over here. Well, my new friend Wendy has had one of those moments recently, and I love the way that God put on her heart. Eyes on your own paper, my dear. Because sometimes we become so focused on what God could be doing in someone else that we miss what he's trying to do in us. So today we're going to talk about what happened when Wendy realized she had already made up her mind about someone, what God walked her through in it, and what she's learning about giving other people room to walk while God still, still keeps her attention on her own walk with him. Welcome, Wendy. I'm so glad that you're here.
[00:01:26] Wendy: Thank you. So excited to be here. Yes.
[00:01:29] Jessica: All right, so before we get started, y' all know I love a good fun fact. And Wendy, you told me that you are a grammar nerd and that you have some very strong opinions about the Oxford comma and the em dash and same.
So obviously we need to know what grammar mistake you makes you twitch the most.
[00:01:48] Wendy: That's a very good question. There are two or three, but I think the biggest one is the misuse of the apostrophe.
The apostrophe and quotes. When people encase words in double quotes to emphasize them.
[00:02:05] Jessica: Yes.
[00:02:05] Wendy: And I just, I think. No, you're. Now you're telling me that this is. You know, we used to do air quotes, right, with our fingers. Air quotes. Now you're telling me that's not really a serious thing. You're trying to emphasize it, but I'm reading it as not serious. This is not working. That is probably the biggest one.
And so, yeah, I used to be mistaken as an English major.
[00:02:30] Jessica: Everywhere I went nice.
[00:02:32] Wendy: And I was not at all.
[00:02:34] Jessica: But yeah, I love English. I. I do. I love English and. Because I know and love English and I love to diagram sentences and I'm probably one of the only ones out that loved it. But I did.
And I will say things incorrectly on purpose, but if people don't know me, they don't know that I'm saying things incorrectly on purpose. And so it kind of, you know, they can think whatever they think about me, but I'm like, man, I'm gonna just have fun with it, because I can, and I know the actual rule. So when it matters, I am using them properly.
[00:03:08] Wendy: Yes. Yes.
[00:03:10] Jessica: Just like to leave you hanging, you know, sometimes.
Yeah. And with Christmas coming up, everyone pay attention to your apostrophes. When you're doing your names on your cards. Go. Yes. Go Google it. Go ask AI if you need to. If you really don't understand it.
Nowhere to put your apostrophe when you're saying your family. Because people. People are judging you out there. I'm just. I'm gonna be honest. I'm gonna tell you what other people won't tell you. They're judging you. So.
[00:03:35] Wendy: Yes.
[00:03:35] Jessica: Sorry.
I love it. I love it. All right, well, let's get into the fun stuff. Even more fun about what happened at this conference, because you walked into one session already pretty convinced that you disagreed with this person who is.
Just take me back to that moment and tell me all of the things. What was going on in your head and what happened in that time?
[00:04:00] Wendy: Yes.
So this is a conference that I go to regularly.
And the person that was getting up to give the keynote at the this session, I had recognized his name, but I didn't know for sure. And during the reading of the bio, I realized why I knew this person's name.
And my whole body kind of tensed up, and I thought, why are we listening to this person?
And I noticed that because I do try to notice when my feelings get really big like that.
And I was sitting in the back of the room, and I had this conversation with God, and the first thing I thought I said to God was, why? Why this person?
[00:04:48] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:04:49] Wendy: I know that there are things that this person has said or written in the past that are not what I would say, consistent with scripture. But also, it's a person who has. Is a leadership in leadership. And God said, well, who picked this speaker? And I said, well, the people on the board for this organization I'm at.
[00:05:11] Jessica: Right.
[00:05:11] Wendy: Okay. Who picked the board members? Well, I voted for them.
Okay. Do you trust them?
And I hesitated a little because I knew in the back of that question was also, do you trust me? God was saying very clearly, do you trust me with this choice?
And that really set me back a little. I had to stop and sheepishly I will admit you're right. God, this is a person that you had purview over this choice and you have a reason that this person was selected.
And so I will, I will listen. I will set everything aside and I will just listen to what he has to say today. And I don't know who else argues with God like that, but I find myself in that spot more often than I want to admit.
But very clearly, God said, do you trust me?
[00:06:14] Jessica: Yeah. And I think it's something that we need to continually ask questions. And he's not afraid of our questions at all because he already knows that we've got them. But asking those questions of what, what is this? Or who is this? Or why? Why am I listening? And also that we listen, right? I mean, we can ask questions, but we also need to listen. And I love that you were so honest about that and you thought, no, I don't, I don't know about this.
So, I mean, I'm going to ask you later, but I can't wait to see what actually happened with it all. But before we get there, why did you have to get past in yourself before you could actually listen to what this person was saying?
[00:06:55] Wendy: I think the biggest thing is I know that I am critical of lots of things.
I am critical of myself, very much so.
And like with the grammar stuff, I do tend toward that, paying attention to what people are saying and doing and making judgments on that. I am the oldest daughter in a large immediate family, in a really big, two really big extended families.
And a lot of things where just I need to know when I enter a room, I make a lot of snap decisions about how I'm going to present myself in that room, what's going to happen in that room. And I spent a lot of my life wearing a mask of I've got it all together. I know what's happening when I get here, and I'm probably the smartest person in the room. So I want to be ready for whatever comes.
And so I think that snap judgment, that paying attention to what's going on around me and I probably have a little bit of Lizzie Bennet in me. When you're, you know, that first decision you make, it's hard to go back on that I'm terrible.
The struggle is real to say I was wrong.
And so I think that piece of it, God has been working on that. And also that judgment comes from a place of I know how everyone should be living their life.
[00:08:29] Jessica: Yeah, right.
[00:08:30] Wendy: That is an attitude that I can see in myself. Sometimes not super proud of it. And yet it's a thing that we're working on.
[00:08:40] Jessica: Yes. Yeah. And you're not. You're definitely not alone in that, because I, too, am the oldest, and I feel like I need to control situations, so I need to know how everything's going to play out, and if it follows a certain suit, you know, you're right. We can say, oh, yeah, I know how this is going to work out, because in the past, this is what has been done. So you are definitely not alone in automatically judging of those things. I'm so thankful that you are telling us here that you immediately went to the Lord with that and didn't just sit, like, arms crossed going, what is he going to say? Because maybe you did before you talked to him, I don't know. But I. I just love that you're sharing that middle part, because I think it's something that we don't talk about a lot, that we've got that instant judging. But then what? Like, we know we're not supposed to, but. But then what?
So as you're sitting there and you've had this conversation with the Lord, something happened that you weren't expecting. So the speaker surprised you and, you know, you had this moment of. Of vulnerability and what happened in you when you heard him, heard them admit that.
[00:09:48] Wendy: Yes. First of all, I was super impressed that the main topic of the talk was right in line with everything that I understand about who Jesus is and what Scripture says about how we are called to interact with the world and be full of all the grace and truth that Jesus came with, the fullness of grace and truth. And that's what we're searching, what we're aiming to be as well.
[00:10:18] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:10:19] Wendy: And that has been just a tenant of my life in ministry for the last 10 years, is Grace and truth hand in hand. So listening to that, I thought, oh, this person is right in line with everything I believe in this area. Yeah, I must have something else off in my understanding. And then he said, I need to admit to you all. Paraphrasing, I need to admit to you all, I have not done this well.
I have been so focused on truth that I have not been good at extending grace.
And I thought, oh, my goodness, I have rarely heard a leader.
[00:11:01] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:11:02] Wendy: And someone. This is someone who has a resume, Right.
That stand up in front of a room of 200 people and say, probably and say, I did it poorly, and I am confessing to you all. And I remember thinking, okay, that shows me two things.
This is A man who is teachable and humble.
[00:11:27] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:11:28] Wendy: And I need to be ready to see people grow and learn and change.
And then as I'm thinking about that, God says, more or less, see, I've got people.
You don't need to worry about other people.
And that was sort of the phrase you said before, keep your eyes on your own paper, please.
[00:11:54] Jessica: Yeah, yeah.
[00:11:55] Wendy: And the reason that is the way God said it to me is because I've been thinking about that for the last probably two to five years in different places, primarily with my children.
And as my children are becoming adults now, all four of them are adults, learning how to let them grow and learn and make their own decisions about faith has been a challenge.
And so here was another place for me to practice that. Practice that mindset, I guess, if you will, practice that mindset of my job is my walk with Jesus.
God's job is everybody else's walk with Jesus.
And right here is an example of, he's got it covered. He doesn't need my help.
[00:12:47] Jessica: News flash.
I. I think that same thing sometimes is I do have four kids. And as they're getting older, I think, well, what if, you know, you go down the what if route? Well, what if I didn't do this, right? Or what if this. And putting their future, their journey on myself, as if I have any power to change their life, really.
[00:13:10] Wendy: Right.
[00:13:10] Jessica: And, you know, we can teach them as much as we can, but how, how different it is to, to judge someone entirely that we deeply love versus judging someone that, you know, we don't know their whole journey and how, how much of a disservice to not only them, but to ourselves when we do that. And it's, it's not quite fair. And so giving them the benefit of the doubt because God changes lives every single second of every day. And we don't. You're right, we don't know what another person's gone through. And so that. Eyes on your own paper, you know, I, I say stay in your own lane all the time, stay in your own lane because you don't know it. We're all running this race to, to heaven one day. And when, when you're on a racetrack, for those of you who don't know when you are racing and they have those lines on the racetrack, if you go out of your line, if you touch the line on either side, you were disqualified. Therefore, you must keep your eyes on your road, on your lane, and stay in it the whole way. You literally can't look at anyone else. And I have seen videos of people who just take one little take over their shoulder, gone. That they've lost just like that, looking at someone else. And obviously, you know, that's when we're talking about eternity here. We're talking about literal life and death. Right. Of, of walking this path. And it's, it's so important for us to remember that. And I love, again, I love, I love this whole conversation because it's, it's really is something that we just don't talk about enough.
[00:14:47] Wendy: Well. And it's, it's interesting because it reminded me of a passage that I tell my children all the time.
[00:14:54] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:14:54] Wendy: In the book of John, in John 21. So we're at the end of John. So after, after Jesus's resurrection, he's talking with the disciples and Peter is having a conversation and points over to John and says, well, what about him? What, what, what does he need to do?
[00:15:11] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:15:11] Wendy: And Jesus kindly. I don't. I'm assuming, looked at Peter and John records him saying, what does it matter if I let him stay until I come back?
You follow me?
[00:15:26] Jessica: Yeah. Mind your business.
[00:15:28] Wendy: Exactly. Mind your business.
And I think, isn't that the grace in that, for us to be able to extend to other people and to allow people to grow, allow people to learn and change? That's. That is the heart of the gospel, for goodness sake. Right. That every one of us is being transformed from glory to glory, more and more into the image of God and we are justified before God and we are made into new creations and we have to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, every one of us, and I can only do mine, and then if I can extend that grace to other people to allow them to change and grow and maybe decide that something they said five years ago is no longer what they believe because they've learned more. Well, I would like people to extend that grace to me.
[00:16:24] Jessica: Right. Yes.
[00:16:26] Wendy: I really do want to extend that grace to other people.
[00:16:30] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:16:31] Wendy: And it seems to be coming up again and again and again this summer and fall in so many different places. About my responsibility is my walk with Jesus, and I extend grace to others as they do it as well.
[00:16:47] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:16:47] Wendy: No one wants to be judged by their worst day or the hardest thing they had to learn.
They want to be judged by what God says about them.
[00:16:56] Jessica: Right.
[00:16:57] Wendy: And I want to be. I want to do that too.
[00:16:59] Jessica: Yeah. So you said also that you have four children and you told me that you're. They're not all walking with the Lord. And so in that vein, of keeping your eyes on your own paper. What does that look like when the paper. The paper that you want to look at is your own child?
[00:17:17] Wendy: Right. First, There's a lot of reflection I thought through. What are those things that might be my responsibility? Was there something I did or didn't do? And I have taken those things to the one child in particular and said, I'm sorry. Yeah, if I could go back and do that differently, I would. And then it's a lot of letting go, trusting God, praying for the child, and then being ready to give testimony of what God is doing in my life when appropriate. Yeah, there's a. There's a lot of. Okay, God, do you want me to say something or do I hold my tongue today?
[00:18:01] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:02] Wendy: And sometimes I'm holding my tongue because it's not the time, and other times there are things I say. So it's. It's this really tough spot.
But also, I know I'm not the only one doing it right.
[00:18:16] Jessica: You are not alone.
[00:18:17] Wendy: And I have friends around me. I have other people that I can talk to about it. And we're doing it together, and we pray for our children together.
And then I remember things like Jesus's conversation with Peter or God's conversation with Elijah at Mount Horeb in First Kings 19, where after he has the victory at Mount Carmel, then he has to run because Jezebel's coming after him to kill him. And he makes his complaint to God. And God says, I still have a job for you. Here's what I'm calling you to do.
And by the way, I have kept 7,000 in Israel who have not bowed the knee to Baal again. God's saying, you have a thing that you are responsible to do that I've called you to do. Go do it. I will take care of the other people.
[00:19:07] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:19:08] Wendy: And so to have those two stories that remind me regularly, my responsibility is to follow God as closely as I can and then to give testimony to all the things he's doing to change me to be more like Him.
[00:19:23] Jessica: Yeah. Which is beautiful. And that is literally the point. We're supposed to be more like him more, but we do get stuck in our flesh of wanting to control things, wanting to hold everything so incredibly tightly. And even when we say, lord, I trust you with them, I trust you with my kids, but also, help me micromanage what you're doing. Let me just be your little assistant.
And you know, it is. I think it's really hard.
It's a big difference between loving Someone well, and feeling responsible for what happens when. Between them and God. Because, I mean, honestly, as a mom, I do feel responsible for a lot of the things they are going through. And there's things that they're going to be in counseling and they're going to be saying, you know, talking about. And I can recognize those things and I can apologize for them. But, you know, recognizing that what belongs to you and what belongs to God, I think is so important because that is how we can continue to help them on their own race without hindering them. Because we think we know what's best for them.
[00:20:30] Wendy: Yes. Because I certainly do think I know the best way for them to do this.
[00:20:35] Jessica: Of course we do.
[00:20:36] Wendy: Yes.
The other thing that I remember regularly is everyone is building a testimony. And so in my trusting God, I am doing my best to think ahead and stand at the end of the.
Of the entrance, stand by the gate and watch for my child to come. So when they start coming back, I can do like the Father did and run to meet them and welcome them in and kill the fatted calf and have the party.
[00:21:08] Jessica: Yes.
[00:21:09] Wendy: Right. And so I think that's the other picture that I want my kids to know is I love you no matter what. And I will always be here when you come back.
No matter how you come back.
If. If you're not ready to follow Jesus, but you need a soft place to land.
That's here. Love it. It's been a while getting to that point for sure.
And I know that a big part of that is because I have other people too, that are walking this same path. And we can talk with one another about it and listen to God together and then encourage one another in how we're doing that with our kids.
You know, none of us was meant to walk with Jesus alone. We're members of bodies.
We're part of the whole body of Christ and we're there to bear one another's burdens and do that together. And so that's been a key piece of it, too.
[00:22:08] Jessica: And.
[00:22:09] Wendy: And I'm so grateful for that.
[00:22:11] Jessica: Yeah. And it. We talk a lot about a community on here. Community is so important in having people around you that are going to spur you on or tell you, hey, I've been seeing this, and maybe, maybe you should know, you know, and. And that is important. Iron sharpens iron. And so we can still stay in our own lanes, but help those that are with us on this journey because that's what God has asked us to do. And I love that, love that you mentioned that because you're really community. We can't. We aren't supposed to do this life alone. I mean, if you read any part of the Bible, someone's either walking with someone or to them, you know, throughout. So many things, really, they're not alone. And if they are, God is always with them. Period. Right. So, yes, you're really still not alone.
[00:23:02] Wendy: Right, exactly. And learning to listen to God's voice. So, you know, in those moments, okay, how much of this, what God has been teaching me, am I sharing right now?
How am I going to love this child well. Or this person in this moment? What true things am I going to say?
What life am I going to speak over them? How am I going to be a light in this moment?
And staying so connected to God to be able to hear and walk where in the way he's already prepared for us to go is such a big piece of that. And we learn that together.
[00:23:41] Jessica: Right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So being together. Actually, I would love to bring our friend listening into this part right here because maybe there is someone in her life that she's watching really close right now, or she's worried about them, or she sees choices that she doesn't even understand that's happening and she wants to fix it oh, so badly.
What. What would you say to her? How can she begin loosening her grip on somebody else's walk with God without feeling like she's giving up on them?
[00:24:12] Wendy: Yes.
I think I would say first and foremost, I can see how much you love this person, and that's so wonderful. So as you look at them, what you can do right now is ask God to continue to show you their heart. I remember when my oldest started high school, there were a lot of students who were wanting to embrace all sorts of different identities, and I didn't understand a lot of those.
And I asked God what my role was going to be there. And as I talked with God about these kids, he did this amazing thing to draw the curtains back on their. On their inner lives as they were putting forth these very.
This level of bravado about who they were.
[00:25:09] Jessica: Right.
[00:25:09] Wendy: God showed me what was happening behind that bravado and allowed me to see some of their hurts and their desire for belonging and.
[00:25:21] Jessica: And connection.
[00:25:22] Wendy: And I could meet that need. And I think God is able to do that for our kids. I know he did it with one of my kids when he was really little and acting out in behaviors before we had all those Neurodivergence.
[00:25:37] Jessica: Yes.
[00:25:37] Wendy: Actually assessed and identified.
And God said, here, let Me show you what's going on inside his heart. And I was able to use what I learned so long ago, two months ago with the same child and walk in and walk into a room where he had just, he'd been really, really mean to his brother. And I said hey dude, I know that's not normally how you interact with people. That's not who you want to be.
[00:26:05] Jessica: What's going on?
[00:26:06] Wendy: And God showed me again what was in. And my son revealed his heart to me.
So we can ask God to reveal our loved ones hearts. Yeah. What's going on behind there? So we can pray well, so we can know how to speak well and meet those, those deep needs of their heart and pray for them. It's. And your love for them is going to lead the way on that. Definitely. There will be times where you might have to speak hard truths.
But let's start by leading with how do I love this person? Well right now just because they are made in the image of God and God loves them so deeply, let's extend that love and care for them well be curious about their life, try to understand their perspective if we can and lead with that love and grace so that we can keep that connection going and have an opportunity then to be there when they start asking the harder questions.
[00:27:11] Jessica: Right? Yeah. I love that. I love that so much. Wendy, thank you so much for being here for sharing that all of this is so, so necessary and it's such a great reminder that no matter where we are in our race that we do have to keep our eyes on our own paper. And it doesn't mean that we don't stop loving someone, that it doesn't mean that we don't not care about what is going on. And it certainly doesn't mean that we have to stop praying for them. But we do have to remember whose job it is. Right. We have to remember that it is not our job. But we can keep loving them and praying for them and walking beside them and telling them the truth and extending grace, but we can't walk their walk with God for them. And I think sometimes we try to take that place but that's something that they have to be there. And I, I love that you just keep reminding us that do all of those things but also so that you can be there and that they want to come back to you because that's, that's the thing is you don't want to discourage them from coming back to you because you love them so well, so hard.
And you know that they, they don't want to come back. So as we wrap up, I want to ask you one last question and that I ask every guest on the podcast, and that is what is one perspective that you would encourage listeners to apply today?
[00:28:36] Wendy: I really do think it comes back to what we've been talking about this whole time, that when we trust God with the people around us, he is faithful to hold them even more than we do. I think about it in terms of my love for my kids is a drop in the bucket compared to the oceans of love God has for them.
And so I can trust God with those other people and focus my attention on making sure I'm walking in the path that he's called me to.
[00:29:13] Jessica: I love that. I love that. Thank you so much. Yes, friend, maybe there is somebody that you've been carrying today who was never actually yours to carry. You can love them deeply without being responsible for their entire journey. You can pray for them without trying to control the answer. You can care about their choices that they're making and still trust that God is capable of meeting them in the places that you cannot reach.
Maybe today is simply an invitation to put their paper back down, turn your attention toward your own, and ask God, what are you doing in me?
And if you're looking for a place to share what God is doing in your life right now, I love to invite you to join the story Haven't. It's a free community where we share real right now stories of what God is doing, encourage one another, build genuine relationships and community as we walk it out together. You can
[email protected] or on your iPhone or Android. And if you have a story of what God is doing in your life, I would love to hear about it. You can reach out to
[email protected] and remember, even small shifts in perspective can lead to big changes. Now go put those perspectives into practice. Talk to you next time.
